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PROFESSOR 1: OK.

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00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:27,450
Just a few announcements before
we get into the lecture today.

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So the structure for today--
our lecture, two hours'

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00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,630
work in your groups.

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00:00:33,630 --> 00:00:37,825
We have, unfortunately,
Elle, the grad student

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who's working with
the heat wave, who

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would be using the heat
wave game, is sick today.

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So she won't be able to come in.

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00:00:43,930 --> 00:00:47,430
But I'm working on rescheduling
a time for her to come in.

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00:00:47,430 --> 00:00:51,370
What I'd love to do is if we can
get her a web link of the heat

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wave game that she could
then give you feedback on,

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that might be good for you all.

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For the rest of the class,
we've got Pablo in today.

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He talked to the
snap team already.

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Is he going to talk
to you again today?

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Or are you guys all on
the right page with him?

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STUDENT: It'd be nice
to show him the game.

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PROFESSOR 1: OK.

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Oh, you didn't show
him the game then?

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OK, cool, cool.

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00:01:12,857 --> 00:01:14,440
What I'd like him
to do is take a look

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at the forecast-based
future game

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today if he can at 2 o'clock.

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I'm going to just
show him a build, get

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some feedback from him.

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And then he'll take a
look at the snap game.

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00:01:26,210 --> 00:01:28,800
And then if he's got time,
the two cholera games.

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He can take a look at those.

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00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:32,960
And again, if you
want to give him

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00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:35,360
web links to playable
versions of the games,

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00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,360
just send them to the
Video Game Bosses list.

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00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,170
And I'll forward along.

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00:01:40,170 --> 00:01:45,690
Other announcements--
I'm going to email this

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to the announcements
list later today.

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00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:52,230
This Friday there is a free
conference workshop thing

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going on at a hotel,
I think, in Boston.

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00:01:57,310 --> 00:01:59,372
But it's being run by
Epic Games, about Unreal.

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00:01:59,372 --> 00:02:01,580
So they're going to do a
bunch of different workshops

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00:02:01,580 --> 00:02:04,400
from about 2:00 to 5:00 and
end the day with a networking

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00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,520
party.

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00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,119
So if you're interested in
using the Unreal engine and all

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00:02:08,119 --> 00:02:09,910
the different new things
about that engine,

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00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:10,979
they'll be running that.

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They're also going to be on
campus Tuesday at 5:00 PM,

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so Tuesday, November 18.

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That can be found at
the GameLab website.

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And they'll be talking
about Blueprint, a way

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to do scripting in Unreal that's
kind of similar to some things

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I've seen for Unity, but
it's baked into Unreal.

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And if you used previous
versions of Unreal,

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I think it's related to Akismet,
if you used that tool before.

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Otherwise, upcoming guests
we have at the class that are

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different from the syllabus-- on
Monday we're going to have two

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writers and talking with Drew,
doing a little panel and then

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a Q&A with y'all talking about
different ways of looking

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at writing for games that I
think would be very directly

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related to at least two of
the games that I've seen.

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Because yours was a very
dialogue-driven game, yeah?

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And then the Animal Crossing
kind of game, I imagine,

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would be really
useful for you all.

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Probably useful for
the other two, as well,

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but those are the ones
that first came to my mind

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when I was scheduling that one.

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And then on the 19th, we have
Blizzard coming in, right?

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PROFESSOR 2: I
think that's right.

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PROFESSOR 1: Yeah.

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So Wednesday night,
Blizzard's going to come in.

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And it's teams from
Heroes of the Storm?

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PROFESSOR 2: I think so.

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But--

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PROFESSOR 1: But yeah, we're
not quite sure exactly who's

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going to be there for that.

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But we talked to them.

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And we requested either Heroes
of the Storm or Hearthstone.

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So one of those
groups, we'll begin

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to talk about their
production process.

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And you can ask them
things about what

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it's like to work at Blizzard.

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That's everything I've got.

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Yeah, so I'm going to bring
it over to-- you're wired?

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Cool.

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Great.

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PROFESSOR 2: So when I went
over to GDC Next just last week,

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I met Richard.

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00:04:00,210 --> 00:04:02,060
Actually, he's been
to all that before.

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And he gave this
talk on game audio.

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And then I remembered,
wait a minute,

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00:04:05,869 --> 00:04:08,160
there's a talk on game audio
that's coming up in class.

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And I was just going to fake it.

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00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,566
And then I heard his
talk and realized maybe

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00:04:12,566 --> 00:04:14,440
he should be the one
talking to you, instead.

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So I invited him
and Andy Forsberg,

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who's his partner
at Hexany Audio.

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Let's see.

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You'll see the name
of the company come up

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in the next slide.

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00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:26,390
And they do professional
sound design

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and audio design and music.

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That includes things
like sound effects,

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as well as scoring and
also advising companies

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on things like the technology
that they're using.

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And he's going to
talk a little bit

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about how to do good audio on a
budget, as well as just things

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to think about in your audio
design of your own game.

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So I'm going to
hand it over to you.

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And thank you very much
for speaking today.

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RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

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Well, thanks so much.

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Happy to be here.

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Just curious-- so the class,
I'm wondering, what level is it?

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Is it more
introductory, advanced?

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00:04:55,130 --> 00:04:56,860
What's the focus?

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00:04:56,860 --> 00:04:58,130
PROFESSOR 2: Intermediate.

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00:04:58,130 --> 00:04:59,960
So they're making video games.

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But it's a class that
actually has prerequisites.

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00:05:02,309 --> 00:05:04,850
So they needed to take another
classes, either in game design

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00:05:04,850 --> 00:05:06,180
or in programming,
before they came here.

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RICHARD LUDLOW: OK.

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Cool, cool.

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00:05:07,590 --> 00:05:10,240
So I'm just curious-- show
of hands, how many people

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are planning to go
out into the world

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00:05:12,090 --> 00:05:14,040
after you graduate and
become game designers,

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00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,060
game developers?

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Anyone?

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Anyone?

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OK, cool, cool.

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Nice.

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That's cool.

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00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:21,454
ANDY FORSBERG: Sweet.

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No, very nice.

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00:05:22,174 --> 00:05:23,090
RICHARD LUDLOW: Great.

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00:05:23,090 --> 00:05:26,210
So yeah, we're going to
talk to you about music

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00:05:26,210 --> 00:05:30,950
and sound in games and then give
a little bit of very practical

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00:05:30,950 --> 00:05:32,916
advice about working
with composers

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00:05:32,916 --> 00:05:34,290
and working with
sound designers.

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And so that's the situation
most of you will probably be in.

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00:05:38,371 --> 00:05:40,370
So we'll give you a little
overview of ourselves

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00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:41,110
in a second.

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00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:42,901
But if you want to go
on to the next slide,

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00:05:42,901 --> 00:05:47,280
we're going to talk
about three key areas.

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Yeah, we're just going
to tag team this.

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00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:53,130
So the three things
we're going to talk about

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are, number one, Interactivity.

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00:05:55,694 --> 00:05:57,360
So we're going to
talk to you about what

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makes game audio
different than film audio

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and why you should
care about it.

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And then in
Agreements, we're going

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00:06:03,790 --> 00:06:07,880
to talk about contracts and what
that looks like for you hiring

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00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,330
a composer or a sound designer,
which is really most often

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00:06:10,330 --> 00:06:11,770
the case with an indy game.

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00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:14,130
And then lastly, we'll talk
about money and budgets

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00:06:14,130 --> 00:06:19,030
and how much hiring one
of us audio guys takes.

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So a little bit about us--
I'm Richard Ludlow, again.

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And I'm the audio
director of our company.

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00:06:26,090 --> 00:06:28,690
And Andy is the music director.

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ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah we both went
to school in Boston, actually.

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RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah,
just across the river

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00:06:33,371 --> 00:06:36,610
over at Berkeley and did
their game audio thing.

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And now we started the
company Hexany Audio.

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00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,830
And basically, music, sound,
and dialogue, as well as

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implementation services are
what we do with our clients.

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ANDY FORSBERG: And we're based
in Los Angeles, obviously.

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RICHARD LUDLOW:
Yeah, based in LA.

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00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:56,360
And we have experience
working on larger AAA console

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00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,750
games, lots of mobile indie
things, so a really wide range.

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00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:02,680
And we do film and
commercial media, as well.

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00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,200
But our focus really is
on games and interactivity

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00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,580
and the technology
that drives that.

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00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:11,740
So yeah, without
further ado, if you want

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00:07:11,740 --> 00:07:15,567
to jump ahead to The Basics.

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00:07:15,567 --> 00:07:16,900
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely.

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00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:23,240
So music in games is all
about the dynamic experience

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00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,660
and player input in the game
and how the music and sound

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00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:27,850
effects adapt around that.

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00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:30,370
Obviously, it's much
different than linear media,

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such as film, TV, et cetera.

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00:07:32,410 --> 00:07:34,225
When you watch a film,
that same explosion

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00:07:34,225 --> 00:07:36,400
is going to happen in the
same point every time.

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So obviously, with games
we have to change that.

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00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:40,390
Because games are different.

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00:07:40,390 --> 00:07:42,950
We have to make it adaptive
to what's going on.

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00:07:42,950 --> 00:07:47,190
So there's four major parts
to audio in a game usually.

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00:07:47,190 --> 00:07:48,030
There's the music.

191
00:07:48,030 --> 00:07:49,890
There's the sound
and the dialogue.

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00:07:49,890 --> 00:07:51,520
But the major part
of this, again,

193
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,600
is the implementation
into the game.

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00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,890
If we write amazing
music or sound effects

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00:07:55,890 --> 00:07:58,690
or we have the coolest
voiceover artists in the world

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00:07:58,690 --> 00:08:00,940
and we get them to do
that stuff for our game--

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00:08:00,940 --> 00:08:03,884
if we implement it incorrectly
or the developer doesn't

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00:08:03,884 --> 00:08:05,550
do such a great job
because there wasn't

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00:08:05,550 --> 00:08:08,360
a dialogue between
us, then all the stuff

200
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,140
on the left side,
those three things,

201
00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:11,570
almost don't even matter.

202
00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:14,320
So it's all about how
it gets put in the game,

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00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:15,515
as well as how it's crafted.

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00:08:15,515 --> 00:08:17,140
RICHARD LUDLOW: And
we're going to talk

205
00:08:17,140 --> 00:08:18,764
about that in the
Interactivity section

206
00:08:18,764 --> 00:08:20,700
if you're like, what
is this implementation

207
00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:22,240
witchcraft we speak of?

208
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,270
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

209
00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:23,780
RICHARD LUDLOW: Anyway.

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00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:24,420
ANDY FORSBERG: Next slide?

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00:08:24,420 --> 00:08:25,295
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

212
00:08:25,295 --> 00:08:27,559
So The Importance of
Audio-- really talking

213
00:08:27,559 --> 00:08:29,350
about why you guys
should care about audio.

214
00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:32,287
Because so often you think,
OK, I've got this mobile game.

215
00:08:32,287 --> 00:08:33,620
I'm going to shut off the audio.

216
00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:34,500
Who cares about it?

217
00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:37,880
But the depth that it
adds is really important.

218
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,574
And we'd just like to touch
on three key areas of why

219
00:08:41,574 --> 00:08:43,990
music and sound is so important
in games, if you want to--

220
00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:44,823
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah.

221
00:08:44,823 --> 00:08:48,020
The first thing, obviously,
the emotional factor.

222
00:08:48,020 --> 00:08:51,440
And you can't get around that.

223
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,340
With everything else,
basically, audio

224
00:08:54,340 --> 00:08:56,710
goes straight to the
center of your brain

225
00:08:56,710 --> 00:08:58,830
that controls that stuff.

226
00:08:58,830 --> 00:09:01,730
It just skips everything
else and stimulates that.

227
00:09:01,730 --> 00:09:05,920
So obviously, when
we were kids we

228
00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,150
turned the music off of a
game or turned the music off

229
00:09:09,150 --> 00:09:10,650
of a film, and we'd
realize that we

230
00:09:10,650 --> 00:09:12,650
weren't having those
emotional responses that we

231
00:09:12,650 --> 00:09:14,320
did when it was on.

232
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,295
So obviously, emotion is
a huge part of what we do.

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00:09:17,295 --> 00:09:18,170
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

234
00:09:18,170 --> 00:09:20,470
And that's a chemical response.

235
00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:24,570
Like Andy said, it's
actually eliciting-- just

236
00:09:24,570 --> 00:09:26,860
emphasize again-- a
chemical response.

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00:09:26,860 --> 00:09:30,570
Visuals do not trigger these
emotional processing centers.

238
00:09:30,570 --> 00:09:32,280
It's sound and music.

239
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,040
That's stimulating parts of
your brain that are different

240
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,920
and actually
creating the emotion.

241
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,440
It's pretty amazing.

242
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,930
At least we like to think
so. [LAUGHS] Anyway, cool.

243
00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:45,050
So the next one is Function.

244
00:09:45,050 --> 00:09:46,630
And this isn't a great term.

245
00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:52,100
But audio, it
supports the ability

246
00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:55,570
for the player to really absorb
a lot of the game information.

247
00:09:55,570 --> 00:09:59,330
So when I say "function,"
it has the function

248
00:09:59,330 --> 00:10:00,950
of giving you
information and also

249
00:10:00,950 --> 00:10:03,134
the function of telling
you what's going on

250
00:10:03,134 --> 00:10:04,300
with regards to your action.

251
00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:06,460
So for example, you're
walking down a hallway.

252
00:10:06,460 --> 00:10:12,329
And there's a guy up ahead
that you hear maybe walking.

253
00:10:12,329 --> 00:10:14,120
And you know, OK,
there's a guard up ahead.

254
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,240
And then maybe your oxygen
tank is running low.

255
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:17,531
And you've got a little "beep."

256
00:10:17,531 --> 00:10:19,739
And your health is maybe at 50%.

257
00:10:19,739 --> 00:10:21,780
Maybe there's an alarm
going off in the building.

258
00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:23,370
You hear a guy in the next room.

259
00:10:26,301 --> 00:10:27,800
You hear all these
different things.

260
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,191
And all of that is information
that's being processed and sent

261
00:10:31,191 --> 00:10:31,690
to you.

262
00:10:31,690 --> 00:10:33,640
And you're able to
absorb it all instantly

263
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,550
without needing to think and see
text on the screen that says,

264
00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:40,720
oh, OK, I'm at 50% oxygen.
There's three enemies nearby.

265
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,770
It's getting dark out
because I hear the crickets.

266
00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:47,580
This is just stuff that your
brain subconsciously absorbs.

267
00:10:47,580 --> 00:10:49,800
So it's functional
in that it provides

268
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,410
that information for players in
an entirely new dimension that

269
00:10:54,410 --> 00:10:55,480
is subconscious to them.

270
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,452
So you can convey lots of
subconscious information.

271
00:10:58,452 --> 00:10:59,410
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

272
00:10:59,410 --> 00:11:00,020
RICHARD LUDLOW:
And then also, it's

273
00:11:00,020 --> 00:11:01,640
that feel-good factor for games.

274
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,690
So you punch a guy.

275
00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:06,640
Oh, well, hold up on that maybe.

276
00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,400
But yeah, you punch a guy.

277
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,430
And it feels good in the game.

278
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:18,680
And that is because of that
trigger, the sound meshing

279
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:20,860
with the psychological.

280
00:11:20,860 --> 00:11:22,530
Anyway, so the sounds
we were talking

281
00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:24,613
about that are memorable--
I know you just played,

282
00:11:24,613 --> 00:11:26,570
what was that, the Zelda
sound or something?

283
00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:27,430
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah.

284
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:29,280
RICHARD LUDLOW: I
couldn't quite hear.

285
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:30,010
ANDY FORSBERG:
Yeah, it obviously

286
00:11:30,010 --> 00:11:32,240
has to be memorable with
game audio, as well.

287
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,760
And yeah, you played
the Zelda one.

288
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,947
Think of the countdown
for Mario Kart

289
00:11:37,947 --> 00:11:40,530
where it makes you want to hit
A really fast and get everyone,

290
00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:44,666
obviously-- but there's
countless examples.

291
00:11:44,666 --> 00:11:45,290
We might have--

292
00:11:45,290 --> 00:11:47,775
[VIDEO GAME SOUND]

293
00:11:50,055 --> 00:11:51,930
RICHARD LUDLOW: You
could just play them all.

294
00:11:51,930 --> 00:11:54,320
Just play them all.

295
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,048
ANDY FORSBERG: Let's see.

296
00:11:56,048 --> 00:11:58,172
RICHARD LUDLOW: I'm not
sure if you've played them.

297
00:11:58,172 --> 00:11:59,255
But I'll just talk about--

298
00:11:59,255 --> 00:12:01,410
[COUNTDOWN SOUNDS]

299
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,720
So these are really
iconic sounds.

300
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,770
And I think the Mario
coin sound is next.

301
00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:10,243
Let's see.

302
00:12:10,243 --> 00:12:11,720
[COIN SOUND]

303
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,930
So that sound has been in an
entire generation of games.

304
00:12:15,930 --> 00:12:18,650
And the Zelda sound,
when you hear that,

305
00:12:18,650 --> 00:12:20,890
that's extremely
rewarding for the player.

306
00:12:20,890 --> 00:12:22,560
It's extremely memorable.

307
00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,710
Sound is burned into
a player's conscience

308
00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:28,180
in a way that
doesn't necessarily

309
00:12:28,180 --> 00:12:29,357
happen with visuals.

310
00:12:29,357 --> 00:12:31,940
You hear that. [SNAPS] And then
you hear the achievement sound

311
00:12:31,940 --> 00:12:32,470
that we played.

312
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:34,053
And it's like, oh,
I've unlocked that.

313
00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:37,870
There's this stimulating
reward response.

314
00:12:37,870 --> 00:12:40,066
And so good sound and
bad sound is going

315
00:12:40,066 --> 00:12:41,190
to stick with your players.

316
00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:43,540
And it can really
help set that game

317
00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:47,070
apart so that later
on the players

318
00:12:47,070 --> 00:12:51,500
are remembering your game
in a very unique way.

319
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:52,180
Anyway--

320
00:12:52,180 --> 00:12:52,670
ANDY FORSBERG: Next slide.

321
00:12:52,670 --> 00:12:53,970
RICHARD LUDLOW: We'll move
on to the real stuff now.

322
00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:55,360
So Interactivity.

323
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:56,630
That was kind of the preface.

324
00:12:56,630 --> 00:12:58,370
So the first section
that we talk about

325
00:12:58,370 --> 00:13:02,030
is it that implementation
and how that works in games.

326
00:13:02,030 --> 00:13:04,460
And that interactivity
is a huge part of that.

327
00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:07,030
So if you want to jump
ahead to the next slide--

328
00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:08,010
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah.

329
00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:11,005
So on the music side of things,
obviously, if you want music

330
00:13:11,005 --> 00:13:14,270
that changes dynamically based
on what the player is doing,

331
00:13:14,270 --> 00:13:15,820
whether he's
walking into a field

332
00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:18,650
and staying there for five
hours because he left it on

333
00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:21,550
to go make a sandwich or
because he's walking in to buy

334
00:13:21,550 --> 00:13:23,190
something from a shopkeeper.

335
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:24,130
So how do we do that?

336
00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:25,546
There are several
different things

337
00:13:25,546 --> 00:13:29,120
we can do, whether a player's
going into battle, et cetera.

338
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,640
We can use one system called
layering, which Richard's going

339
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,910
to talk about in another slide.

340
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:35,955
We're going to talk
about crossfading.

341
00:13:35,955 --> 00:13:38,330
And then we're going to give
you an example of branching,

342
00:13:38,330 --> 00:13:39,265
as well.

343
00:13:39,265 --> 00:13:40,640
And then there's
also generative.

344
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,681
And these are just a few.

345
00:13:41,681 --> 00:13:46,620
There are so many options that
we can use to implement music

346
00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:48,005
in a cool, interactive way.

347
00:13:48,005 --> 00:13:48,880
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

348
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,809
So let's jump over to
one of the examples.

349
00:13:50,809 --> 00:13:52,100
And go ahead and throw that up.

350
00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,900
Don't hit the Play
button quite yet.

351
00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:57,390
So you can hit the next slide.

352
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:58,621
And it'll pop up the graph.

353
00:13:58,621 --> 00:13:59,120
All right.

354
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:04,830
So what you're seeing here is
the idea of a layered score.

355
00:14:04,830 --> 00:14:08,140
So in this one, this is a piece
of music I wrote for a game

356
00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:10,820
where there's three
different intensity layers.

357
00:14:10,820 --> 00:14:14,337
And you're going to hear a first
one that's very low intensity.

358
00:14:14,337 --> 00:14:16,670
And then you're going to hear
these other layers come in

359
00:14:16,670 --> 00:14:21,010
on top as maybe the
player starts to go

360
00:14:21,010 --> 00:14:22,210
into an area with enemies.

361
00:14:22,210 --> 00:14:25,010
And then they go into an
area where they're in battle.

362
00:14:25,010 --> 00:14:28,031
And you'll hear the music
stack in a very dynamic way.

363
00:14:28,031 --> 00:14:29,280
Anyway, go ahead and hit play.

364
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:30,289
Let's see.

365
00:14:30,289 --> 00:14:34,201
[MUSIC PLAYING]

366
00:14:34,201 --> 00:14:35,668
So that low intensity.

367
00:14:41,550 --> 00:14:43,778
Players done some [INAUDIBLE].

368
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,490
The second layer's
going to come in on top.

369
00:14:56,945 --> 00:15:00,410
[MUSIC INTENSIFIES]

370
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,300
You hear all three
layers, though, I think.

371
00:15:15,770 --> 00:15:19,164
Back to just the first two.

372
00:15:19,164 --> 00:15:20,330
And then just the first one.

373
00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:21,670
So you can see this as well.

374
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:24,510
You could hear the layers fading
out in and between one another.

375
00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:26,340
But it was a very
dynamic experience.

376
00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:28,150
So this is where
we'd take the music,

377
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:30,540
and we'd specifically
craft it and write it

378
00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:33,940
so that these things could stack
and be triggered dynamically

379
00:15:33,940 --> 00:15:35,690
based on whatever
the player is doing.

380
00:15:35,690 --> 00:15:39,517
So let's jump ahead
to the next slide.

381
00:15:39,517 --> 00:15:41,100
So this is one more
example-- and this

382
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,030
is the last one we'll
show you for music--

383
00:15:44,030 --> 00:15:48,130
that deals with the way that
music can move dynamically

384
00:15:48,130 --> 00:15:49,170
between states again.

385
00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:51,610
So yeah, so we've got
the low, medium, high.

386
00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:53,580
But this time,
we've broken it out

387
00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:55,580
into smaller, little chunks.

388
00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:57,220
So the player will do something.

389
00:15:57,220 --> 00:15:59,820
And the musical will actually
wait until the musical point,

390
00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:01,720
like the next bar or beat.

391
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,100
And then it will begin
a transitional segment

392
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:06,862
into the next level intensities.

393
00:16:06,862 --> 00:16:09,070
And this is going to be a
much more dynamic and fluid

394
00:16:09,070 --> 00:16:10,520
experience than the layering.

395
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,730
So go ahead and hit Play.

396
00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:16,940
[AMBIENT MUSIC]

397
00:16:16,940 --> 00:16:18,090
Low intensity, again.

398
00:16:27,414 --> 00:16:29,020
So a player's going
to do something.

399
00:16:29,020 --> 00:16:31,406
And it's going to come
in with the transition.

400
00:16:31,406 --> 00:16:32,720
[MUSIC INTENSIFIES]

401
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,324
Transition.

402
00:16:34,324 --> 00:16:37,803
[MUSIC PLAYING]

403
00:16:41,282 --> 00:16:44,264
Now we're going
to go into medium.

404
00:16:44,264 --> 00:16:45,258
We're in medium.

405
00:16:56,225 --> 00:16:57,683
The player's going
to do something.

406
00:16:57,683 --> 00:16:59,808
And the music's going to
wait to do the transition.

407
00:17:02,653 --> 00:17:04,144
Transition.

408
00:17:04,144 --> 00:17:07,126
[MUSIC CHANGES]

409
00:17:10,108 --> 00:17:14,084
Now it's running the high.

410
00:17:14,084 --> 00:17:17,563
[MUSIC PLAYING]

411
00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:27,006
The music's going to wait and
then go into the transition.

412
00:17:38,965 --> 00:17:40,950
And back to low.

413
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:41,450
Cool.

414
00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:44,210
So you saw the music move
through-- one, two, three,

415
00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:46,695
four-- six different
pieces there.

416
00:17:46,695 --> 00:17:49,180
But it sounded like the
experience was being scored.

417
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:51,870
So again, the idea here is
we're trying to-- again,

418
00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:53,200
with the film, you watch it.

419
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:53,700
It goes by.

420
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:54,600
You know what's going to happen.

421
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,725
We don't know what's going
to happen with the game.

422
00:17:56,725 --> 00:17:59,380
So we write music that
can change and adapt

423
00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:02,530
like that, in a
very film-like way

424
00:18:02,530 --> 00:18:04,090
to score the player experience.

425
00:18:04,090 --> 00:18:06,407
So why do we do this?

426
00:18:06,407 --> 00:18:08,740
ANDY FORSBERG: So obviously,
it creates a more immersive

427
00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:10,400
and dynamic player experience.

428
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,010
Any time we are
taking you guys out

429
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:17,240
of that escapist experience,
we're not doing our job.

430
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,630
It extends track
longevity, which

431
00:18:19,630 --> 00:18:23,840
we'll explain later with budgets
why that's nice, as well.

432
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,190
But you get better
replay value out of it.

433
00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:29,280
And it's the greatest value
from each individual minute

434
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:30,125
of music.

435
00:18:30,125 --> 00:18:32,682
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, instead
of having to hire someone

436
00:18:32,682 --> 00:18:34,390
to write three different
pieces of music,

437
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:36,034
if you're on a
budget, you can say,

438
00:18:36,034 --> 00:18:37,200
we'll do one piece of music.

439
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,335
And we'll make it layered.

440
00:18:38,335 --> 00:18:39,960
And it'll be one
better piece of music.

441
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:40,918
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

442
00:18:40,918 --> 00:18:44,674
Because if a movie
is 90 minutes long

443
00:18:44,674 --> 00:18:46,090
and they want 60
minutes of music,

444
00:18:46,090 --> 00:18:47,690
you write 60 minutes of music.

445
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:50,840
One small mobile game could
have 15 minutes of music.

446
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,430
Or it could have one minute
of music or three minutes.

447
00:18:53,430 --> 00:18:54,180
So it all depends.

448
00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:55,055
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

449
00:18:55,055 --> 00:18:57,190
And that goes into-- we'll
talk about with budgets

450
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:58,910
how that affects that.

451
00:18:58,910 --> 00:19:00,980
But so yeah, jumping
onto the next slide,

452
00:19:00,980 --> 00:19:03,500
how do we do these
interactive systems?

453
00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:05,930
We build them with what
we call audio middleware.

454
00:19:05,930 --> 00:19:09,410
And two of the commercial ones
are FMOD, that you see here.

455
00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:11,810
And if you want to jump ahead
to the next one-- Wwise.

456
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:13,610
And these are just screenshots.

457
00:19:13,610 --> 00:19:18,010
And essentially, these allow us
to interface with programmers

458
00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:21,050
and set up these musical
triggers and these points

459
00:19:21,050 --> 00:19:24,500
of musical change based
on different parameters,

460
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:27,870
like number of enemies around
or game state or health,

461
00:19:27,870 --> 00:19:30,340
and let us set up these
musical transitions

462
00:19:30,340 --> 00:19:31,730
and things like that.

463
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:35,650
So yeah, we can jump
onto the next section.

464
00:19:35,650 --> 00:19:36,425
Agreements.

465
00:19:36,425 --> 00:19:39,337
So you've learned all
about interactivity.

466
00:19:39,337 --> 00:19:40,920
And you're like,
yes, this is awesome.

467
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,339
I'm going to hire
a game composer

468
00:19:42,339 --> 00:19:43,630
so that they can do this stuff.

469
00:19:43,630 --> 00:19:48,560
And then with
music, though, it's

470
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,870
obviously a creative
piece of content.

471
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:52,750
So the agreements look
a little different

472
00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:54,100
sometimes than other agreements.

473
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,700
And so we're going to show
you three different kinds.

474
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:57,533
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah.

475
00:19:57,533 --> 00:19:59,050
So the purposes
of these contracts

476
00:19:59,050 --> 00:20:02,210
are, obviously, to see
who owns it, obviously,

477
00:20:02,210 --> 00:20:03,650
first and foremost.

478
00:20:03,650 --> 00:20:06,236
What we're going to
be delivering to you.

479
00:20:06,236 --> 00:20:09,120
What the delivery milestones
are in a game just as

480
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,012
there's development milestones.

481
00:20:11,012 --> 00:20:12,470
How much you guys
are paying, which

482
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:14,670
is super important
for you and us.

483
00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:18,140
And what's your
rights as a developer?

484
00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:19,210
Where can you use it?

485
00:20:19,210 --> 00:20:21,350
Can you go around and
license it to use it

486
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:24,500
in all the things involved
with your project or no?

487
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:26,360
And what are our usage rights?

488
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,420
Can we use it in our portfolio,
on our Facebook page?

489
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:31,214
Can we do that sort of thing?

490
00:20:31,214 --> 00:20:33,505
So we're just going to go
through a few of the contract

491
00:20:33,505 --> 00:20:34,550
types here.

492
00:20:34,550 --> 00:20:34,740
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

493
00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:37,150
And it's really important to
spell out all those things.

494
00:20:37,150 --> 00:20:38,720
So yeah, let's look
at the first one.

495
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,030
Work for Hire.

496
00:20:40,030 --> 00:20:41,890
This is the most common
type of agreement

497
00:20:41,890 --> 00:20:43,380
that you run into
with composers.

498
00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:45,690
And it's essentially
where I'm the composer,

499
00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:49,530
I've written music, and I am
selling you my music or sound.

500
00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:50,720
You're buying it from me.

501
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,910
And you're taking all the
rights for it as a developer.

502
00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:59,050
You become the owners
of the music and sound.

503
00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:01,520
And so you've got the
rights associated with it.

504
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,740
And because you have the
rights, the developer then

505
00:21:03,740 --> 00:21:05,180
can usually use
the audio however

506
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:06,250
they want in the project.

507
00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:08,740
Because you own it.

508
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:11,410
You've also got the exclusive
right to use the audio,

509
00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:13,506
meaning you're the only
ones that can use it.

510
00:21:13,506 --> 00:21:15,380
I can't go around and
turn around and sell it

511
00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:16,940
to Bob or Joe over there.

512
00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:17,880
You've bought it.

513
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:18,900
It's yours.

514
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:21,910
And then lastly-- this
is the disadvantage

515
00:21:21,910 --> 00:21:24,860
for developers-- is that this
is a more expensive agreement.

516
00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:27,860
Because you are buying
out all of our rights.

517
00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:30,720
And I'm going to show in
detail in a few slides

518
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,460
some important clauses to be
aware of in these contracts.

519
00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:37,710
But yeah, so let's talk about on
the other end of the spectrum.

520
00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:41,430
We've got work for hire, where
you and me-- the composer

521
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:42,850
selling the developer my rights.

522
00:21:42,850 --> 00:21:45,434
And then on the other end of the
spectrum, we've got licenses.

523
00:21:45,434 --> 00:21:46,308
ANDY FORSBERG: Right.

524
00:21:46,308 --> 00:21:47,870
So we have two
sorts of licenses.

525
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:50,370
The first we'll talk about
is the non-exclusive.

526
00:21:50,370 --> 00:21:52,500
So this means that
we are retaining

527
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:54,500
the rights of the music,
sound effects, anything

528
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:55,480
we do for your project.

529
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,950
We could go around and turn
it to another game, et cetera.

530
00:21:57,950 --> 00:21:59,900
However, don't be
afraid of these.

531
00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:01,900
We're writing the
same custom music

532
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:04,690
for your game, which is
super important to remember.

533
00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:07,230
You're getting the
same exact product.

534
00:22:07,230 --> 00:22:08,900
It's obviously a lot cheaper.

535
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:12,870
And it's a great way to save
yourself some money when

536
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:15,290
working with people like us.

537
00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:17,210
And again, you can
still have unrestricted

538
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:19,730
use of the audio in your
project and things involved

539
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:20,740
with that usually.

540
00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:24,650
But again, we could turn around
and use this for whatever we

541
00:22:24,650 --> 00:22:26,940
would like to use it for.

542
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:28,540
So yeah, those are
the main reasons--

543
00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:30,680
RICHARD LUDLOW: And we use this
negotiating with developers

544
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,267
all the time.

545
00:22:31,267 --> 00:22:33,350
So if they don't want to
buy out all of our rights

546
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:35,225
and pay that full price,
we'll say, OK, well,

547
00:22:35,225 --> 00:22:37,634
we'll retain the right to
go sell it to Bob and Joe

548
00:22:37,634 --> 00:22:39,050
and still give you
the same music.

549
00:22:41,019 --> 00:22:42,810
ANDY FORSBERG: And then
we have, obviously,

550
00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:48,480
the exclusive license,
which is you're going

551
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,370
to retain all of the rights.

552
00:22:50,370 --> 00:22:52,850
But it's usually for a
certain amount of time.

553
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:55,280
And then those rights
transfer back to us.

554
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,430
And sometimes it's
industry-specific.

555
00:22:57,430 --> 00:23:02,609
So we might be able to use that
audio in a trailer or a film

556
00:23:02,609 --> 00:23:03,150
or something.

557
00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:06,000
However, pertaining to the game
or anything in the game world,

558
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,114
we're not going to turn
around and license that

559
00:23:08,114 --> 00:23:08,780
to someone else.

560
00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:12,460
Usually this lasts
about one to five years.

561
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:14,320
We like to call this
the happy medium

562
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,940
between the work for hire and
the non-exclusive license.

563
00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:22,650
And it really is a healthy
balance of price and control.

564
00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:25,440
Because it's right in the middle
as far as price is concerned.

565
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,020
And everyone's happy.

566
00:23:27,020 --> 00:23:29,170
You guys could use
it for what you need.

567
00:23:29,170 --> 00:23:31,335
But then we also get those
rights back. eventually.

568
00:23:31,335 --> 00:23:32,210
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

569
00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:34,540
So work for hire--
I make the music.

570
00:23:34,540 --> 00:23:35,260
I'm the composer.

571
00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:36,180
I sell it to you.

572
00:23:36,180 --> 00:23:37,220
You get all the rights.

573
00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:38,960
Non-exclusive--
I'm the composer.

574
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,040
I make the music.

575
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,040
I retain all the rights.

576
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,456
And I can sell it
to other people.

577
00:23:42,456 --> 00:23:44,420
With exclusive,
I'm the composer.

578
00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:45,277
I make the music.

579
00:23:45,277 --> 00:23:46,110
I retain the rights.

580
00:23:46,110 --> 00:23:49,370
But I give you the
exclusive right to it.

581
00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:51,010
So I can't sell
it to anyone else.

582
00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:52,630
And then it usually
reverts back to us

583
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:55,750
after a brief
time, as discussed.

584
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:58,211
So most common, though,
is the work for hire.

585
00:23:58,211 --> 00:24:00,710
And you're seeing that contract,
and you're like, oh my god.

586
00:24:00,710 --> 00:24:01,293
This is awful.

587
00:24:01,293 --> 00:24:02,770
I don't want to see this.

588
00:24:02,770 --> 00:24:05,680
But anyway, let's jump
through that really quick

589
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,250
and just a few key points
that really go to developers

590
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:12,200
helping protect themselves.

591
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,437
And I've got to hit Play
over here on my key notes

592
00:24:15,437 --> 00:24:17,520
so that I can see all the
different slide changes.

593
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,330
One second.

594
00:24:20,330 --> 00:24:21,090
OK, cool.

595
00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:22,610
So the first thing is services.

596
00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:26,460
It's like, what are you paying
for music, sound, dialogue?

597
00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:27,570
What are you buying?

598
00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:28,653
This will be really quick.

599
00:24:28,653 --> 00:24:31,630
Jumping onto the next one,
so payment for services--

600
00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:32,800
what are you getting paid?

601
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,140
You want to spell out exactly
how much you're going to charge

602
00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:41,116
and how much you're going to
pay for the music and sound.

603
00:24:41,116 --> 00:24:43,490
Next point, and this is the
independent contractor point.

604
00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:45,530
That's important for
you as a developer.

605
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:49,620
Because this essentially says
that the composer or sound

606
00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:53,570
designer you're hiring
is not on salary

607
00:24:53,570 --> 00:24:55,390
and does not need benefits.

608
00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:57,510
They have to take care
of their own taxes.

609
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:59,030
It just protects the developers.

610
00:24:59,030 --> 00:25:03,100
So they make
everything clear there.

611
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,310
Next, warranties.

612
00:25:05,310 --> 00:25:07,890
These are things, again, that
protect you, as the developer.

613
00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:10,700
So this says, OK, the music
we're writing, its original.

614
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,870
We're not stealing John
Williams' music, as I always

615
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:13,130
say.

616
00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:14,780
ANDY FORSBERG:
[HUMMING] score game.

617
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:16,740
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes,
right. [CHUCKLES]

618
00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:20,536
But then if we do steal it--
and we're not going to steal it.

619
00:25:20,536 --> 00:25:22,410
And there are some other
warranties, as well.

620
00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:24,970
But we'll jump onto
the indemnification.

621
00:25:24,970 --> 00:25:27,940
So then it usually says, if we
do steal John Williams' music,

622
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:29,050
you guys are protected.

623
00:25:29,050 --> 00:25:31,280
And there's different
levels of indemnification.

624
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,170
But the indemnification
just says

625
00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:37,180
it falls on us if
we screw things up.

626
00:25:37,180 --> 00:25:39,800
Next, there's usually a little
confidential information

627
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,930
clause, a little NDA clause
about not disclosing things

628
00:25:44,930 --> 00:25:48,760
and then some specific legal
language about the ownership

629
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,981
and assignment of rights
specific to work-for-hire,

630
00:25:51,981 --> 00:25:52,730
legal mumbo-jumbo.

631
00:25:56,450 --> 00:26:00,000
We'll skip the subcontract.

632
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,580
And then there are some rights
that are specific to us,

633
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:03,790
as the content creators.

634
00:26:03,790 --> 00:26:07,160
So if you remember, we talked
about composer-specific rights,

635
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,730
things like the ability
for us to post our work

636
00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:12,360
on our website, something
that we like in our contract

637
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:16,310
so that we can advertise music
to other people [INAUDIBLE]

638
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:17,360
them to hire us.

639
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:20,140
Similarly, we often spell out
how we're going to be credited.

640
00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:22,720
And the credit is a
great way, as well,

641
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,740
to negotiate with your composer.

642
00:26:24,740 --> 00:26:26,860
If you're on a budget,
maybe you say, OK, I'll

643
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:29,360
put your name at the
opening cinematic

644
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,980
instead of just in the
back to help compensate

645
00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:35,220
for our lack of budget,
get you a little more

646
00:26:35,220 --> 00:26:36,820
exposure, things like that.

647
00:26:36,820 --> 00:26:40,280
So you spell out how
you want to be credited.

648
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,857
That's really it
for the contract.

649
00:26:42,857 --> 00:26:44,440
I don't want to go
too detailed there.

650
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,846
But some key points
to be thinking about

651
00:26:46,846 --> 00:26:51,450
if you guys ever hire a
composer or a sound designer.

652
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:53,090
Let's talk about money.

653
00:26:53,090 --> 00:26:56,360
This is the question
most people have.

654
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:59,890
And whenever I meet a
developer, without fail,

655
00:26:59,890 --> 00:27:02,280
within like 10 minutes of the
conversation, they're like,

656
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,900
ah, what do you charge?

657
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:06,630
ANDY FORSBERG: What's generally
what you charge for any game?

658
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:07,910
RICHARD LUDLOW: It's funny.

659
00:27:07,910 --> 00:27:09,942
And I gave this
talk at GDC Next.

660
00:27:09,942 --> 00:27:11,400
And you'll see by
the end of it why

661
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,430
I'm like, that's not a
question I can just answer.

662
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:16,420
And then I got like
three emails from people

663
00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:18,490
who attended the talk
after and who were like,

664
00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:21,074
can you just give me a
range for an indie budget?

665
00:27:21,074 --> 00:27:23,240
Anyway, but you'll see why
that's funny in a minute.

666
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,542
Because my response is
always to them when they ask,

667
00:27:25,542 --> 00:27:26,500
how much do you charge?

668
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:28,820
My response is always,
what's your budget?

669
00:27:28,820 --> 00:27:33,642
And the reason being
because are so many factors,

670
00:27:33,642 --> 00:27:37,430
like what the deadline
is, musical style,

671
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:39,880
whether or not we're talking
about a solo piano piece

672
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,280
versus epic orchestral piece.

673
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,238
ANDY FORSBERG: Are we
going to get live players

674
00:27:43,238 --> 00:27:45,967
to play those orchestral
pieces or a piano player

675
00:27:45,967 --> 00:27:47,160
to play that song, maybe.

676
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:47,820
RICHARD LUDLOW: You can
throw out the bullet points

677
00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:49,020
if you want, just FYI.

678
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:52,410
We're just going through them.

679
00:27:52,410 --> 00:27:54,500
Anyway, and what's
the release platform?

680
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:55,700
Is this the AAA console?

681
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:58,620
Or is it a Facebook game for
the American Cancer Society?

682
00:27:58,620 --> 00:27:59,465
ANDY FORSBERG:
Again, are we going

683
00:27:59,465 --> 00:28:01,750
to use a work-for-hire or
what one of the license deals?

684
00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:02,666
RICHARD LUDLOW: Right.

685
00:28:02,666 --> 00:28:05,079
Like we just talked about,
buying out the rights or us

686
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:05,870
keeping the rights?

687
00:28:05,870 --> 00:28:08,770
Really big effect
on the price there.

688
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:09,770
How much are you buying?

689
00:28:09,770 --> 00:28:11,210
We're like Costco.

690
00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:11,950
[INAUDIBLE]

691
00:28:11,950 --> 00:28:14,450
ANDY FORSBERG: But if you're
going to buy 100 sound effects,

692
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:16,533
that's obviously going to
be different than if you

693
00:28:16,533 --> 00:28:18,395
need five sound effects
or 50 sound effects.

694
00:28:18,395 --> 00:28:20,090
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, we give
bulk discounts all the time.

695
00:28:20,090 --> 00:28:20,480
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

696
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,230
And that goes into,
obviously, the depth

697
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:23,890
of the audio
experience, as well,

698
00:28:23,890 --> 00:28:27,505
which is how crazy we're going
to get with interactivity,

699
00:28:27,505 --> 00:28:29,904
if we're going to
be using middleware.

700
00:28:29,904 --> 00:28:32,070
RICHARD LUDLOW: Like Andy
said with the mobile game,

701
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:35,220
you could put one minute,
three minutes, 10 minutes, 20

702
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:37,320
minutes, all in the same game.

703
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,740
It's going to be a better
game if you've got-- maybe

704
00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:40,490
you don't need 20.

705
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:42,739
But if you've got more
than one looping track,

706
00:28:42,739 --> 00:28:44,030
it's going to be a better game.

707
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:47,180
But the game still exists
with a single piece of music.

708
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:49,620
So saying, how
much do you charge,

709
00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:52,080
is a very, very
difficult question

710
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,270
to answer without knowing--

711
00:28:53,270 --> 00:28:53,780
ANDY FORSBERG: Any stipulations.

712
00:28:53,780 --> 00:28:55,404
RICHARD LUDLOW: --more
about your game.

713
00:28:55,404 --> 00:28:56,090
Yeah.

714
00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:58,370
ANDY FORSBERG:
One of our clients

715
00:28:58,370 --> 00:29:01,830
that we work with, on their page
where you go to contact them,

716
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:04,210
it says, when do you need
your project done by?

717
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:06,046
And one of the
options is, Yesterday.

718
00:29:06,046 --> 00:29:06,920
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

719
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,660
And deadlines are a
huge part of that.

720
00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:11,410
Sometimes we get
calls where it's

721
00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:14,180
like, we need this in
two days or in a day.

722
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:15,860
And we'll do it.

723
00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:18,790
But it's going to cost more
than if you need it in a year.

724
00:29:18,790 --> 00:29:23,550
So contacting, guys,
early is important.

725
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:25,529
Anyway, let's jump
on to payment models.

726
00:29:25,529 --> 00:29:28,070
ANDY FORSBERG: And you can hit
all these bullet points again.

727
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:29,220
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah,
I mean, we were just

728
00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:31,660
basically talking about
how composers and sound

729
00:29:31,660 --> 00:29:34,970
designers charge.

730
00:29:34,970 --> 00:29:38,280
Typically with music, it's
a per-minute music, so not

731
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,975
per minute that we're working.

732
00:29:39,975 --> 00:29:41,600
ANDY FORSBERG: And
then sound effects--

733
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,410
yeah, that we're working-- and
then sound effects are usually

734
00:29:44,410 --> 00:29:46,394
per-asset.

735
00:29:46,394 --> 00:29:48,060
RICHARD LUDLOW: Or
sometimes a flat fee.

736
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:50,240
That's also common
[INAUDIBLE] quote a project

737
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,970
and say, OK, I'll do
your whole project

738
00:29:51,970 --> 00:29:55,302
regardless of how many sound
effects for, you know, $20,000.

739
00:29:55,302 --> 00:29:56,260
I don't know, whatever.

740
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:56,990
ANDY FORSBERG:
Sometimes hourly rate.

741
00:29:56,990 --> 00:29:58,260
We usually don't do this.

742
00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:00,242
This is a really
hard one to engage.

743
00:30:00,242 --> 00:30:01,700
RICHARD LUDLOW:
It's a valid thing.

744
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:02,240
People do it.

745
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:02,730
We don't.

746
00:30:02,730 --> 00:30:03,280
ANDY FORSBERG: We don't.

747
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,490
RICHARD LUDLOW: But yeah.

748
00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:06,140
[KNOCKING SOUNDS]

749
00:30:06,140 --> 00:30:08,450
There's some weird thing
happening below us.

750
00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:09,910
ANDY FORSBERG: Sorry.

751
00:30:09,910 --> 00:30:16,020
And then usually, we really like
to get back-end profit sharing.

752
00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:17,770
RICHARD LUDLOW: If the
budget isn't there.

753
00:30:17,770 --> 00:30:19,930
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, that's
a big thing with audio

754
00:30:19,930 --> 00:30:21,000
to think about.

755
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,570
At the end of the
day, is it really

756
00:30:23,570 --> 00:30:27,840
going to cost you that much to
give 0.5% of back-end when you

757
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,270
can't give anything up front?

758
00:30:29,270 --> 00:30:30,967
Because we always
have passion projects.

759
00:30:30,967 --> 00:30:32,550
We make money on
some of our projects.

760
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:35,420
But we really like to believe
in games that are really cool.

761
00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:38,120
And sometimes the best to do
that is just to share the game.

762
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,360
RICHARD LUDLOW: The
indie scene, they often

763
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,180
can't afford because they
don't have that upfront money.

764
00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:45,290
And so we'll talk about
a back-end profit sharing

765
00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:46,110
percentage.

766
00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:48,950
And if you talk to people who
have been doing this 30 years,

767
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:52,130
that didn't exist
10, 20, 30 years ago.

768
00:30:52,130 --> 00:30:54,620
Audio guys did not get back-end
profit sharing usually.

769
00:30:54,620 --> 00:30:56,520
Because they were
just paid upfront.

770
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,820
But that's kind of gone away.

771
00:30:58,820 --> 00:31:02,740
I guess that is probably
true of all industries.

772
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:07,610
But so thinking about that
is a very valid thing.

773
00:31:07,610 --> 00:31:12,200
And it's usually accompanied
by some upfront fee.

774
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:13,780
It's usually a reduced amount.

775
00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:16,590
But the back-end thing
is definitely valid.

776
00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:19,950
We want new developers
to be less afraid of that

777
00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:21,160
and more open to it.

778
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,832
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely.

779
00:31:22,832 --> 00:31:25,290
RICHARD LUDLOW: And then any
combination of the above, too.

780
00:31:25,290 --> 00:31:25,790
Cool.

781
00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:28,960
Anyway, so how does
this break down?

782
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,880
And you can throw
all these up here.

783
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,086
Just showing you music,
sound, and dialogue.

784
00:31:34,086 --> 00:31:35,460
There's a lot of
components here.

785
00:31:35,460 --> 00:31:37,940
So when we're talking
about what we're charging,

786
00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:42,260
we charge different prices
for themes in the music.

787
00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:46,966
So if I write a musical
theme that has its setting,

788
00:31:46,966 --> 00:31:48,340
and we charge one
price for that.

789
00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:50,070
But then we might
put an arrangement

790
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:53,980
of that in an underwater level,
a desert level, a jungle level.

791
00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:55,740
The same theme, but
different arrangements

792
00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:56,850
for different levels.

793
00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:59,250
And we charge less for
those arrangements.

794
00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:00,710
Those little
transitional segments

795
00:32:00,710 --> 00:32:03,940
you've heard in that demo I
played, those are transitions.

796
00:32:03,940 --> 00:32:05,650
We charge less for those.

797
00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:08,430
And any different price
for things like stingers,

798
00:32:08,430 --> 00:32:10,780
like a coin pick-up
or an end game,

799
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:15,230
like, [HUMMING] sound
like that when you die.

800
00:32:15,230 --> 00:32:18,960
With sound effects, we break
things out into primary sound

801
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,670
effects, like if you've got
a creature having an attack

802
00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:22,910
sound, "ch."

803
00:32:22,910 --> 00:32:26,450
And then it's like a
die sound, idle sound,

804
00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:28,950
those are all primary sounds.

805
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:33,500
Iterations might be like,
attack01, attack02, attack03,

806
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:34,890
die01, die02.

807
00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:37,730
And we charge less
for iterations.

808
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:41,110
UI and ambiences,
different prices there.

809
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:43,790
And then dialogue, there's just
a whole slew of components,

810
00:32:43,790 --> 00:32:45,640
like casting.

811
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,350
Usually you have to hire
someone to cast all the actors.

812
00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:50,440
ANDY FORSBERG:
Getting Kevin Spacey

813
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,940
for the next Call of Duty game.

814
00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:52,910
Or where--

815
00:32:52,910 --> 00:32:53,960
RICHARD LUDLOW: Kevin
Spacey for the next--

816
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:54,580
ANDY FORSBERG: --we're
doing it ourselves.

817
00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:57,199
RICHARD LUDLOW: Who doesn't
want to use Kevin Spacey?

818
00:32:57,199 --> 00:32:57,740
You're right.

819
00:32:57,740 --> 00:32:59,630
And then so they
charge a few hundred,

820
00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:02,167
a few thousand an hour,
depending on the actor.

821
00:33:02,167 --> 00:33:03,750
Usually there's
someone directing them

822
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:05,290
while they're being recorded.

823
00:33:05,290 --> 00:33:08,566
Someone's recording them,
editing them, processing.

824
00:33:08,566 --> 00:33:09,940
Just throwing this
up here so you

825
00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:12,599
know all the different
components of music-sound

826
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:13,390
that are out there.

827
00:33:13,390 --> 00:33:16,420
So again, asking,
what do you charge,

828
00:33:16,420 --> 00:33:18,940
what does your game
need, is a very--

829
00:33:18,940 --> 00:33:21,977
we need to know what your
game needs before we can say.

830
00:33:21,977 --> 00:33:23,310
ANDY FORSBERG: Cool, next slide.

831
00:33:23,310 --> 00:33:24,355
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

832
00:33:24,355 --> 00:33:25,980
So we're getting
close to the end here.

833
00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:27,230
Then we can do some questions.

834
00:33:27,230 --> 00:33:30,000
But just talking about
a theoretical project--

835
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:37,160
say you've got a low budget,
$160,000 Kickstarter project.

836
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,070
So talking about
music-sound, we're

837
00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:42,510
typically looking
at like 5% to 15%

838
00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:44,790
of budget being
allocated to audio.

839
00:33:44,790 --> 00:33:48,622
5% to 15%, usually
hovering around 10, 15, 20,

840
00:33:48,622 --> 00:33:50,470
25-- very good.

841
00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:52,150
ANDY FORSBERG: 100! [LAUGHS]

842
00:33:52,150 --> 00:33:53,810
RICHARD LUDLOW:
No, but seriously.

843
00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:56,340
And so a common
problem with this,

844
00:33:56,340 --> 00:34:01,770
though, is that your game, to be
awesome, needs this much music.

845
00:34:01,770 --> 00:34:05,270
But your budget is only going
to allow for this much music.

846
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:08,639
So let's say we've got
a hypothetical game here

847
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,360
where a project might need
18 minutes of music and 300

848
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,590
sound effects.

849
00:34:12,590 --> 00:34:15,540
So say we were going to
charge like $750 a minute

850
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:18,420
for themes and $500 a
minute for arrangements,

851
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:21,030
which are kind of indie prices.

852
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:25,150
We charge up to-- we have
a different scale because

853
00:34:25,150 --> 00:34:26,940
of all the different
factors involved--

854
00:34:26,940 --> 00:34:31,000
but up to like $1,000 a
minute is pretty typical.

855
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,330
The big guys on AAA's will
be charging $2,500 a minute.

856
00:34:34,330 --> 00:34:36,219
But up to $1,000
a minute of music

857
00:34:36,219 --> 00:34:41,040
is pretty typical,
between $500 and $1,000.

858
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,659
And then maybe sound effects.

859
00:34:42,659 --> 00:34:46,690
Maybe you use a combination
of all those, total $12,500.

860
00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:49,230
Let's say this game,
to be awesome, again,

861
00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:52,110
needs $23,500 for the audio.

862
00:34:52,110 --> 00:34:54,930
And you're like, oh my
god, that's a lot of money.

863
00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:56,429
And let's say the
developer has only

864
00:34:56,429 --> 00:34:58,076
allocated $11,000 to audio.

865
00:34:58,076 --> 00:34:58,950
ANDY FORSBERG: Right.

866
00:34:58,950 --> 00:35:01,580
So some things we can do to
reduce the costs are-- we

867
00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:03,990
can reduce the
original music themes

868
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:05,619
and increase the arrangements.

869
00:35:05,619 --> 00:35:07,160
So we can just do
a lot of iterations

870
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,017
with things, which is actually
a very feasible option,

871
00:35:10,017 --> 00:35:12,842
because those composers
were trained to do that.

872
00:35:12,842 --> 00:35:15,050
We can reduce the number of
sound effects iterations,

873
00:35:15,050 --> 00:35:16,360
just have more of
those primaries.

874
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,590
RICHARD LUDLOW: Only attack01
instead of 02, 03, 04.

875
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:19,600
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

876
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,142
We can do back-end
profit sharing,

877
00:35:21,142 --> 00:35:22,100
as we mentioned before.

878
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:23,765
So maybe at 3% on that.

879
00:35:23,765 --> 00:35:25,390
And then we can use
a license agreement

880
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:27,600
instead of saying you're
using the work-for-hire.

881
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,280
RICHARD LUDLOW: So just some
common things to think about

882
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,860
in that negotiating
process about,

883
00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:33,860
how can we work
with the audio guy

884
00:35:33,860 --> 00:35:37,800
to reduce the cost to something
we're both comfortable with?

885
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,500
Yeah, so let's just
wrap up really quick.

886
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:42,190
What did we talk about?

887
00:35:42,190 --> 00:35:43,600
Interactivity.

888
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:44,660
It's music.

889
00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:45,690
It's sound.

890
00:35:45,690 --> 00:35:49,460
It's responding dynamically
to player input.

891
00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:50,600
The player does something.

892
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,450
The music, the sound,
it changes, it reacts.

893
00:35:54,450 --> 00:35:56,480
It's going to create a
deeper player experience.

894
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,510
It's going to reduce the
cost if you do it right.

895
00:35:59,510 --> 00:36:02,740
And we're doing this
with FMOD, Wwise, Fabric,

896
00:36:02,740 --> 00:36:04,730
different audio middleware.

897
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:06,480
ANDY FORSBERG: And
then for budgets, we're

898
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,590
trying to look at 5% to 15% of
the total budget of your game

899
00:36:09,590 --> 00:36:11,760
allocated to audio.

900
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,644
Remember to consider
back-end payments.

901
00:36:13,644 --> 00:36:15,060
We really think
that's going to be

902
00:36:15,060 --> 00:36:17,780
part of the future of how
audio works within, especially,

903
00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:18,770
the indie market.

904
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:23,400
And just be willing to
negotiate and figure things out.

905
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,680
Your costs fluctuate.

906
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,110
Our costs fluctuate.

907
00:36:26,110 --> 00:36:28,030
So it just needs to
be a negotiation.

908
00:36:28,030 --> 00:36:29,530
We can usually
figure something out.

909
00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:30,770
Any audio person can.

910
00:36:30,770 --> 00:36:31,280
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

911
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:32,980
Oh, and then we jumped
over Agreements.

912
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:33,500
ANDY FORSBERG: Oh, sorry.

913
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:34,416
I went right and down.

914
00:36:34,416 --> 00:36:37,144
RICHARD LUDLOW: No,
it's cool It's all good.

915
00:36:37,144 --> 00:36:38,560
And then, agreements,
again, we're

916
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,352
talking about work-for-hire.

917
00:36:40,352 --> 00:36:41,060
I'm the composer.

918
00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:41,976
I'm writing the music.

919
00:36:41,976 --> 00:36:44,150
You, as the developer,
are buying it.

920
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:46,360
Licenses-- I'm the composer.

921
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,170
I write the music.

922
00:36:47,170 --> 00:36:48,400
I obtain the rights.

923
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,653
And then I give you some type
of license to use the music.

924
00:36:51,653 --> 00:36:55,150
But that wraps up, I
think, the four points

925
00:36:55,150 --> 00:36:56,960
we were going to talk about.

926
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,610
If you guys have
specific questions,

927
00:36:58,610 --> 00:36:59,900
we're happy to answer them.

928
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,180
Or Phil, if you have
any additional points

929
00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:06,765
you want to touch on.

930
00:37:06,765 --> 00:37:10,132
[APPLAUSE]

931
00:37:11,181 --> 00:37:12,056
ANDY FORSBERG: Thanks

932
00:37:12,056 --> 00:37:13,018
RICHARD LUDLOW: Thanks.

933
00:37:13,018 --> 00:37:14,476
PROFESSOR 2: I
think for questions,

934
00:37:14,476 --> 00:37:16,410
if anyone has any
questions, I'll

935
00:37:16,410 --> 00:37:18,730
repeat it since I'm a little
bit closer to the mic.

936
00:37:18,730 --> 00:37:20,640
Although, maybe the
mic might pick you up

937
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,230
if you're in the
back of the room.

938
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:23,540
We'll give it a shot.

939
00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:24,810
RICHARD LUDLOW: It doesn't need
to be a question about what

940
00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:25,920
we talked about, too.

941
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,970
Any audio related things.

942
00:37:27,970 --> 00:37:29,990
ANDY FORSBERG: Favorite color.

943
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:31,798
PROFESSOR 2: Yeah,
as loud as you can.

944
00:37:31,798 --> 00:37:32,714
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

945
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:50,255
PROFESSOR 2: Did
you [INAUDIBLE]?

946
00:37:50,255 --> 00:37:51,380
RICHARD LUDLOW: I think so.

947
00:37:51,380 --> 00:37:54,540
So was the gist of
it basically being

948
00:37:54,540 --> 00:37:57,390
folks using music and sound and
then getting takedown notices?

949
00:37:57,390 --> 00:37:58,422
Is that what she said?

950
00:37:58,422 --> 00:37:59,880
PROFESSOR 2: Yeah,
takedown notices

951
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,380
on some of those by
YouTube or Twitch.

952
00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:02,755
RICHARD LUDLOW:
Yeah, absolutely.

953
00:38:02,755 --> 00:38:04,330
So the whole
takedown notice thing

954
00:38:04,330 --> 00:38:07,620
has really come about because
people are just using the music

955
00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:10,860
or just using the sound without
asking for permission for it.

956
00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:12,890
Now, in an actual
gameplay video,

957
00:38:12,890 --> 00:38:15,510
if you're streaming
Twitch, that is really

958
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:17,530
a very developer-specific
question.

959
00:38:17,530 --> 00:38:20,510
And that's not something that
we, as the composers and sound

960
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:23,010
designers, really even
have control over.

961
00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:25,530
If it's for a game
and if it's in a game,

962
00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:28,840
if we're working on a Nintendo
game and it goes out to them,

963
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,340
then that is owned by Nintendo.

964
00:38:31,340 --> 00:38:33,150
And if it's not
owned by Nintendo,

965
00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:34,540
they've got the license for it.

966
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:37,590
So it's all on them
with regards to that.

967
00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:40,660
So some developers are
totally cool letting it slide.

968
00:38:40,660 --> 00:38:42,670
Some developers are not.

969
00:38:42,670 --> 00:38:46,945
But it's a shifting-- it's all
being figured out right now.

970
00:38:46,945 --> 00:38:49,070
ANDY FORSBERG: And usually
that happens, obviously,

971
00:38:49,070 --> 00:38:52,530
in the bigger game world.

972
00:38:52,530 --> 00:38:54,030
The biggest game
that would probably

973
00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:55,530
happen with in the
indie world would

974
00:38:55,530 --> 00:38:57,660
be something like Journey,
or something like that.

975
00:38:57,660 --> 00:39:00,450
RICHARD LUDLOW: And most
often, at least now, developers

976
00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:02,660
are pretty cool with it.

977
00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:05,180
But I know it's all being
figured out right now.

978
00:39:05,180 --> 00:39:06,629
That's a very
shifting landscape.

979
00:39:06,629 --> 00:39:09,170
ANDY FORSBERG: And it has to do
with royalties in music and--

980
00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:11,832
RICHARD LUDLOW:
That's another thing.

981
00:39:11,832 --> 00:39:14,290
ANDY FORSBERG: Collections have
been set up for film and TV

982
00:39:14,290 --> 00:39:15,945
for eons now.

983
00:39:15,945 --> 00:39:17,570
And there's a system
in place for that.

984
00:39:17,570 --> 00:39:19,487
But there's really no
landscape for games yet.

985
00:39:19,487 --> 00:39:21,695
RICHARD LUDLOW: It's a little
different with YouTube,

986
00:39:21,695 --> 00:39:23,170
and the Twitch, as well.

987
00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:26,460
We get paid 0.0001 cents
every time someone will

988
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:28,060
watch something on YouTube.

989
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:30,000
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah,
it's insulting.

990
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,040
RICHARD LUDLOW: In
five years, hopefully,

991
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,248
that will all be figured out.

992
00:39:32,248 --> 00:39:35,070
But sorry I don't
have a better answer.

993
00:39:35,070 --> 00:39:37,227
our fault. It's the developer.

994
00:39:37,227 --> 00:39:38,810
PROFESSOR 2: Just a
follow up question

995
00:39:38,810 --> 00:39:41,720
on that-- it seems like in
order for all these services

996
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,790
to actually detect that
they're using the music,

997
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:46,810
they need to cross check
it against some sort

998
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:48,100
of audio database.

999
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:50,970
So is that something that
you, as composers, usually

1000
00:39:50,970 --> 00:39:51,720
end up submitting?

1001
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:53,480
Or is that something that
the game companies usually

1002
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:54,130
end up doing?

1003
00:39:54,130 --> 00:39:56,171
Or does it really depend
on the license agreement

1004
00:39:56,171 --> 00:39:59,120
that you have with the company?

1005
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,125
ANDY FORSBERG: It's
usually the developer.

1006
00:40:01,125 --> 00:40:02,000
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

1007
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,750
So there's a couple
different ways.

1008
00:40:04,750 --> 00:40:07,210
We have friends who
work for PlayStation.

1009
00:40:07,210 --> 00:40:09,160
And they were just
talking about how

1010
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,950
they posted things on their
PlayStation North America

1011
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:13,450
account.

1012
00:40:13,450 --> 00:40:17,000
And they got taken down by
PlayStation Japan or something.

1013
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,680
So their own companies
aren't even really

1014
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,590
able to quite mesh
this together yet.

1015
00:40:22,590 --> 00:40:27,580
But the databases are sometimes
internal to publishers.

1016
00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:31,860
But also sometimes
they're scanning surfaces

1017
00:40:31,860 --> 00:40:35,230
that these royalties
agencies like BMI and ASCAP

1018
00:40:35,230 --> 00:40:35,934
actually have.

1019
00:40:35,934 --> 00:40:38,350
And they've got these automatic
scannings that are set up.

1020
00:40:38,350 --> 00:40:41,660
And that sometimes comes about
because we submit our music

1021
00:40:41,660 --> 00:40:45,250
to these royalty agencies
like ASCAP and BMI

1022
00:40:45,250 --> 00:40:46,920
in order to be able to get paid.

1023
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,329
But then they use them to
find out how many times things

1024
00:40:49,329 --> 00:40:50,120
are getting played.

1025
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,062
They don't use them to figure
out what should be taken down.

1026
00:40:53,062 --> 00:40:54,020
ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly.

1027
00:40:54,020 --> 00:40:57,999
Yeah, I think, especially
on the indie level,

1028
00:40:57,999 --> 00:41:00,040
the only way we would be
able to detect something

1029
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,040
is if we went and
watched a YouTube video,

1030
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,010
our music was in it, and
we're like, oh, crap!

1031
00:41:04,010 --> 00:41:04,820
That's our music.

1032
00:41:04,820 --> 00:41:08,220
RICHARD LUDLOW: We don't
have these engines going.

1033
00:41:08,220 --> 00:41:11,700
The publishers have teams
of people doing takedowns

1034
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:12,739
on their content.

1035
00:41:12,739 --> 00:41:13,780
ANDY FORSBERG: Yay, team.

1036
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:15,150
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, and I
don't know all the details

1037
00:41:15,150 --> 00:41:15,780
behind that.

1038
00:41:21,166 --> 00:41:22,040
ANDY FORSBERG: Sorry?

1039
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:23,623
RICHARD LUDLOW: The
ASCAP stands for--

1040
00:41:23,623 --> 00:41:28,650
BOTH: American Society of
Composers and Publishers?

1041
00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:31,880
RICHARD LUDLOW: I want
to say Publishers.

1042
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,730
I think they probably should.

1043
00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:35,530
I don't know, man.

1044
00:41:35,530 --> 00:41:36,905
We just get the
checks from them.

1045
00:41:36,905 --> 00:41:40,400
ANDY FORSBERG: BMI is
Broadcast Music, Incorporated.

1046
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,150
PROFESSOR 2: So I can
take a look at that.

1047
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:43,270
ANDY FORSBERG:
They're called PRO's.

1048
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:45,650
RICHARD LUDLOW: Composers,
Authors, and Publishers.

1049
00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:47,230
PROFESSOR 2: Next one?

1050
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:48,130
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes.

1051
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:48,830
PROFESSOR 2: Other questions?

1052
00:41:48,830 --> 00:41:49,748
Yeah, Liz?

1053
00:41:49,748 --> 00:41:53,880
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]
art talk of last class,

1054
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,900
they have done an artist test
to see if the particular artists

1055
00:41:57,900 --> 00:41:58,880
are right for the game.

1056
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,782
Is there an
equivalent for music?

1057
00:42:00,782 --> 00:42:02,115
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely.

1058
00:42:02,115 --> 00:42:04,073
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, we
do those all the time.

1059
00:42:04,073 --> 00:42:06,930
And that's a totally legitimate
thing if you aren't sure.

1060
00:42:06,930 --> 00:42:12,360
Asking them to do
a 30-second demo.

1061
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,921
I'd say a 30-second demo
is totally legitimate.

1062
00:42:16,921 --> 00:42:19,420
Yeah, and usually the best way
to do that, guys, just so you

1063
00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:22,390
know, take some gameplay,
be it from your game,

1064
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:25,390
a different game, concept
art for your game,

1065
00:42:25,390 --> 00:42:29,360
take some visuals as a
video, send it to them.

1066
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,260
Or just concept art,
send it to them.

1067
00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:32,485
And let them work with that.

1068
00:42:32,485 --> 00:42:33,985
ANDY FORSBERG:
Because we could even

1069
00:42:33,985 --> 00:42:36,140
do an interactive demo
for it at that point.

1070
00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:38,120
The big thing, again, is
there's the difference

1071
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,930
between being able
to write good music

1072
00:42:39,930 --> 00:42:42,660
and having a core concept
for a game from the beginning

1073
00:42:42,660 --> 00:42:46,030
and thinking about interactivity
when you're composing and doing

1074
00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:46,880
sound effects.

1075
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,555
Because it's a whole
different animal.

1076
00:42:48,555 --> 00:42:49,430
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah.

1077
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:51,820
But the demos are
totally legitimate.

1078
00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:52,860
We do them all the time.

1079
00:42:52,860 --> 00:42:56,380
But sending some
visuals along is

1080
00:42:56,380 --> 00:42:58,970
very important to making
sure you get what you want.

1081
00:42:58,970 --> 00:43:01,652
And then we're able to
see what the game is

1082
00:43:01,652 --> 00:43:03,610
going to look like and
then make that decision.

1083
00:43:03,610 --> 00:43:05,068
Otherwise, we might
write something

1084
00:43:05,068 --> 00:43:08,930
that you might not have
the vision for because we

1085
00:43:08,930 --> 00:43:09,860
haven't seen the art.

1086
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:12,390
And maybe we could easily
do what you wanted,

1087
00:43:12,390 --> 00:43:15,320
but we just misinterpreted it
and went a different direction.

1088
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,612
But yeah, tests are
legitimate, absolutely.

1089
00:43:18,612 --> 00:43:19,570
PROFESSOR 2: Questions?

1090
00:43:19,570 --> 00:43:23,660
AUDIENCE: How much are they
paid for the music test?

1091
00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:26,152
PROFESSOR 2: Will you be
paid for an audio test?

1092
00:43:26,152 --> 00:43:27,860
RICHARD LUDLOW: What
did the art guy say?

1093
00:43:27,860 --> 00:43:28,844
I'm curious.

1094
00:43:28,844 --> 00:43:30,177
AUDIENCE: They said [INAUDIBLE].

1095
00:43:40,202 --> 00:43:42,410
ANDY FORSBERG: We have not
found that to be extremely

1096
00:43:42,410 --> 00:43:43,430
common with what we do.

1097
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:44,620
We'd like it to be more common.

1098
00:43:44,620 --> 00:43:45,950
RICHARD LUDLOW: It
used to be a thing.

1099
00:43:45,950 --> 00:43:47,990
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, it
used to be a huge thing.

1100
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:49,700
RICHARD LUDLOW: For
commercials, it was a big thing.

1101
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:51,180
You'd get paid for doing a demo.

1102
00:43:51,180 --> 00:43:51,860
ANDY FORSBERG: I
think it's definitely

1103
00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:53,110
more common in the game world.

1104
00:43:53,110 --> 00:43:54,950
In the film and TV
world, it's so saturated

1105
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:56,570
with composers and
sound designers

1106
00:43:56,570 --> 00:43:58,380
right now that
they don't need to.

1107
00:43:58,380 --> 00:44:00,360
Because so many
people want the work.

1108
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,390
But it is a respectful
thing to do,

1109
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:06,195
I think if it's a longer demo.

1110
00:44:06,195 --> 00:44:07,820
If it's a shorter
demo, then it's like,

1111
00:44:07,820 --> 00:44:09,550
we're happy to get the gig.

1112
00:44:09,550 --> 00:44:10,740
RICHARD LUDLOW: We're going
to keep the rights to that,

1113
00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:11,240
anyway.

1114
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:13,840
So you could say a couple
hundred bucks maybe.

1115
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,030
But it's not a required thing.

1116
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:20,160
If we want the gig, we're
happy to do a 30-second demo

1117
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,471
to try and get it often.

1118
00:44:21,471 --> 00:44:23,220
It's nice to throw a
couple hundred bucks.

1119
00:44:23,220 --> 00:44:25,550
But at that point, it's
a couple hundred bucks.

1120
00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:32,700
It's not like-- it's pennies
in the grand scheme of things

1121
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:34,070
if the project is larger.

1122
00:44:34,070 --> 00:44:38,842
So yeah, anyway,
hopefully that solves it.

1123
00:44:38,842 --> 00:44:39,550
PROFESSOR 2: Yes.

1124
00:44:39,550 --> 00:44:40,043
RICHARD LUDLOW: Any more?

1125
00:44:40,043 --> 00:44:40,905
AUDIENCE: Do you find
that part of your job

1126
00:44:40,905 --> 00:44:43,512
is convincing people
that audio is important?

1127
00:44:43,512 --> 00:44:44,470
ANDY FORSBERG: Oh yeah.

1128
00:44:47,550 --> 00:44:50,660
RICHARD LUDLOW: That's
a big part of it.

1129
00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:53,426
We use the three things--
emotion, function-- no.

1130
00:44:53,426 --> 00:44:55,800
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, I think
the biggest argument in that

1131
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,960
is probably a mobile scene.

1132
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,543
Like in class,
someone was probably

1133
00:45:00,543 --> 00:45:03,043
playing a mobile game during
our talk today and-- (LAUGHING)

1134
00:45:03,043 --> 00:45:04,450
just kidding.

1135
00:45:04,450 --> 00:45:07,235
But it's a big thing, is like
well, do they just mute that?

1136
00:45:07,235 --> 00:45:09,110
And then it's like,
yeah, you could say that.

1137
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:10,862
But some people do listen to it.

1138
00:45:10,862 --> 00:45:13,070
When they do listen to it,
they listen on headphones.

1139
00:45:13,070 --> 00:45:15,550
And we were at a talk at
a conference this year

1140
00:45:15,550 --> 00:45:18,240
called GameSoundCon
with a composer

1141
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:20,970
named Guy Whitmore, who did the
music for Peggle and Peggle 2.

1142
00:45:20,970 --> 00:45:22,640
And he was talking
about, there's

1143
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,470
not a more intimate experience
for audio than in headphones

1144
00:45:26,470 --> 00:45:27,970
or in that arena.

1145
00:45:27,970 --> 00:45:33,270
But I think in general, it
is undeniably important.

1146
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:35,950
RICHARD LUDLOW: You
can put out a game.

1147
00:45:35,950 --> 00:45:39,010
A mobile game can do
OK with bad audio.

1148
00:45:39,010 --> 00:45:40,110
We're not going to lie.

1149
00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:44,390
That's a thing,
like Flappy Bird.

1150
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:46,280
Believe me, I love Flappy Bird.

1151
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,490
I have triple-digits
score on Flappy Bird.

1152
00:45:50,490 --> 00:45:54,640
But if you want to
set your game apart,

1153
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,802
people look at that
polished experience.

1154
00:45:57,802 --> 00:45:59,260
If we're talking
about indie games,

1155
00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:00,320
they look at
something like Journey

1156
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,970
or mobile games, something like
Peggel 2, they look at that,

1157
00:46:02,970 --> 00:46:05,290
and they're like, wow,
this entire experience

1158
00:46:05,290 --> 00:46:08,030
is super polished.

1159
00:46:08,030 --> 00:46:09,405
ANDY FORSBERG:
It's a great game.

1160
00:46:09,405 --> 00:46:11,200
RICHARD LUDLOW: And it's broken
down into the three parts,

1161
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:11,890
really.

1162
00:46:11,890 --> 00:46:15,800
It's the functional, it's
the mechanic of the game,

1163
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,740
it's the visual,
and it's the audio.

1164
00:46:18,740 --> 00:46:21,660
And those are all a
third of the game.

1165
00:46:21,660 --> 00:46:25,220
And if you take out one of
those, you can sell the game.

1166
00:46:25,220 --> 00:46:26,989
If you don't have
great art, that's fine.

1167
00:46:26,989 --> 00:46:29,280
There's a lot of great games
that don't have great art.

1168
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:30,700
If you don't have
great mechanics,

1169
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:32,740
OK, maybe it's pretty
and sounds nice.

1170
00:46:32,740 --> 00:46:33,640
That'll still sell.

1171
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,765
ANDY FORSBERG: If that was
a pie and you had people

1172
00:46:35,765 --> 00:46:38,304
over for a party, would you
hand them only 2/3 of the pie?

1173
00:46:38,304 --> 00:46:38,970
They'd be like--

1174
00:46:38,970 --> 00:46:39,886
RICHARD LUDLOW: Crazy.

1175
00:46:39,886 --> 00:46:41,490
ANDY FORSBERG: --this
dude is selfish.

1176
00:46:41,490 --> 00:46:43,700
[LAUGHING]

1177
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:46,890
RICHARD LUDLOW: He says that
because I eat like a pie--

1178
00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:48,556
I have a thing where
I eat a pie a week.

1179
00:46:48,556 --> 00:46:50,634
ANDY FORSBERG: That's
a whole other--

1180
00:46:50,634 --> 00:46:52,050
RICHARD LUDLOW:
But no, seriously,

1181
00:46:52,050 --> 00:46:54,700
so your game can function
without one of these things

1182
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:55,510
being great.

1183
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:57,930
But it's not going to be
as great of an experience.

1184
00:47:00,550 --> 00:47:01,050
[INAUDIBLE]

1185
00:47:05,034 --> 00:47:05,700
PROFESSOR 2: No?

1186
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:07,640
Then I want to thank
you again very much

1187
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,034
for speaking to our students.

1188
00:47:10,034 --> 00:47:11,700
RICHARD LUDLOW: Thank
you for having us.

1189
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:14,200
[APPLAUSE]

1190
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,990
Yeah, and feel free to put
up our email addresses.

1191
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:20,785
Mine is rludlow his is aforsberg
if you want to-- Oh, OK.

1192
00:47:20,785 --> 00:47:22,660
ANDY FORSBERG: --@hexany--
oh, yeah, perfect.

1193
00:47:22,660 --> 00:47:23,360
OK, cool.

1194
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,380
RICHARD LUDLOW: And yeah, feel
free to shoot us an email.

1195
00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:31,910
If you have any questions,
we're happy to support audio

1196
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:36,110
with the new generation
of developers.

1197
00:47:36,110 --> 00:47:38,430
There's a lot of great
people over at Berkeley, too.

1198
00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:40,300
If you're looking for
composers and sound designers

1199
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:41,820
to collaborate with,
other students,

1200
00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:43,160
there's a lot of great
people over there.

1201
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,620
There's the Video
Game Music Club.

1202
00:47:44,620 --> 00:47:46,760
ANDY FORSBERG: Don't be
afraid to cross the bridge.

1203
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,090
RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes.

1204
00:47:48,090 --> 00:47:52,970
The Video Game Music Club,
if you shoot them an email,

1205
00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:54,700
you'll get like 10
responses from people

1206
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:56,991
who are like, yes, let me
help you work on this game.

1207
00:47:56,991 --> 00:47:57,990
You're not getting paid.

1208
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:58,865
I'm not getting paid.

1209
00:47:58,865 --> 00:48:00,890
They might be OK with that.

1210
00:48:00,890 --> 00:48:01,760
ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah.

1211
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,490
You guys have the
facilities for what you do.

1212
00:48:03,490 --> 00:48:05,454
And Berkeley has the
facilities for what they do.

1213
00:48:05,454 --> 00:48:06,953
RICHARD LUDLOW:
Anyway, but then you

1214
00:48:06,953 --> 00:48:08,630
can call us when
you've got paid gigs.

1215
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:09,390
[TSKS]

1216
00:48:09,390 --> 00:48:10,240
ANDY FORSBERG:
(WHISPERING) Just saying.

1217
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:11,323
RICHARD LUDLOW: All right.

1218
00:48:11,323 --> 00:48:12,570
Anyway, well, thanks so much.

1219
00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:15,720
I really appreciate you guys
caring about audio, really,

1220
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:16,430
honestly.

1221
00:48:16,430 --> 00:48:18,702
We really appreciate
people caring about music

1222
00:48:18,702 --> 00:48:19,660
and sound a little bit.

1223
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:20,760
So thanks so much.

1224
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,160
ANDY FORSBERG: And good luck
with the rest of your semester.

1225
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:22,660
RICHARD LUDLOW: Absolutely.

1226
00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:23,380
Thanks.

1227
00:48:23,380 --> 00:48:24,300
See you guys around.

1228
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:25,340
ANDY FORSBERG: Cheers, guys.

1229
00:48:25,340 --> 00:48:26,256
RICHARD LUDLOW: Adios.

1230
00:48:26,256 --> 00:48:28,692
[APPLAUSE]

1231
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:35,050
PROFESSOR 1: All right.

1232
00:48:35,050 --> 00:48:37,260
So yeah, on that
note, if you are

1233
00:48:37,260 --> 00:48:43,660
taking CMS617 next semester, the
advanced game studio, CMS610,

1234
00:48:43,660 --> 00:48:49,090
the media arts industries
law class, both of those

1235
00:48:49,090 --> 00:48:51,320
are making a good
polished experience

1236
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,950
for the end of the
semester, with the idea

1237
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:56,760
of either showing
it to publishers

1238
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,110
or submitting it to a festival.

1239
00:48:58,110 --> 00:49:01,240
So audio is really, really
important in those two classes.

1240
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:03,720
And going to Berkeley
for that kind of support

1241
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:05,014
is highly recommended.

1242
00:49:05,014 --> 00:49:06,680
Also recommend them
this class if you've

1243
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,290
got the time, as well.

1244
00:49:08,290 --> 00:49:09,819
And let us know
if you'd like more

1245
00:49:09,819 --> 00:49:11,860
information about connecting
with Berkeley folks.

1246
00:49:11,860 --> 00:49:13,985
PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, we
actually know the instructors

1247
00:49:13,985 --> 00:49:16,200
and even some alums.

1248
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,936
But the alums know the people
who are still in college.

1249
00:49:18,936 --> 00:49:20,852
PROFESSOR 1: Yep, just
email Video Game Bosses

1250
00:49:20,852 --> 00:49:22,983
if you'd like that contact info.

1251
00:49:22,983 --> 00:49:25,822
Otherwise, you've got five
minutes to take a break,

1252
00:49:25,822 --> 00:49:27,030
meet back up with your teams.

1253
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:31,189
And Pablo will be in at 2
o'clock to play three games.